Wednesday, May 12, 2004
GOOD
On today's SportsCenter:
Dan Patrick: Is the Seattle Mariners' run as an elite team over?
Jeff Brantley: Yes.
There's two ways to attack this...
-- Argue whether the run is over or not, and back up your point, or...
-- Argue whether or not the Mariners were truly elite.
Don't get me wrong, the Mariners since 2000 have given us some good times (most notably 2000-01). But given the results (or lack thereof), can we really call this team an elite team over this time span?
I know I've said this a couple times on the site, but I'm going to say it again. If you would have come up to me after the Mariners were eliminated in the 2000 ALCS and told me that the Yankees wouldn't win the World Series in 2001, 2002, or 2003, you damn well better believe I would have thought the Mariners would have at least gone to one of those World Series. That's the confidence I had in these guys BEFORE the 116-win season. I knew there was a chance Alex would go (and he did), but I figured they'd have enough pitching to get them by. Of course, 2001 came and many things came along that we'd never expected. I expected good pitching, sure, but did I expect Paul Abbott to go 17-4? Heck no. Then the hitting...no one knew Bret Boone would do that. No one could solve Ichiro, which provided some consolation at the time for not having the power of Alex (as did the crazy numbers of Boone). Who can forget the play of Stan Javier, light years away from the bench of today, and miles away from the benches of 2002 and 2003.
Then came the realization in 2002 that there wasn't a power bat to replace Alex. Then the league started to catch up to Ichiro. Then the brass decided to let Aaron Sele go (smart) and sign James Baldwin in his place (not smart...two words: Jason Schmidt), not far departed from shoulder surgery. Then came the realization that no, you can't blow a fastball past Major League hitters when it tops out at 89. Then came the realization that this team was almost dead without Edgar, but could stay afloat for half a season with a stopgap Ruben Sierra. Lou Piniella realized he was playing with a 24-man roster because of Pat Gillick's perpetual love affair with Rule V prospects (Luis Ugueto, Baseball Prospectus' Running Joke), not good when you realize Ugueto and Charles Gipson were the same guy -- late-inning defensive replacement. Who can forget Dave Myers throwing up the stop sign about three seconds too late in Anaheim and tearing Chris Snelling's ACL, something that has set Snelling back at least two years and should be considered grounds for firing (they canned Johnny Moses instead)? There went a big piece in any midseason trade possibility. If I remember right, that was the year where all of a sudden everyone wanted position players instead of minor league arms. Or maybe that was last year. It's all a blur now.
So we don't just have Pat Gillick to blame for deadline inactivity in 2002, we have Dave Myers too. But remember, there's always the waiver wire!! You had to love those late-season acquisitions of Jose Offerman, Doug Creek, and Ismael Valdes (the most solid of the group). I forgot exactly why Offerman was brought on, but I'm guessing they sold some line of veteran experience off the bench with a little skill with the bat. Valdes apparently plugged the hole left because Baldwin blew. Creek apparently was to fill the role of second lefty in the bullpen, but apparently no one in the Mariner front office could find the answer to "why wasn't this guy good enough for Tampa Bay, and why would that make him good enough for a team contending for the playoffs?"
Okay, enough spiel from me. I need a nap.
I think the Mariners from 2000-2003 were a pretty good team with a nominal run. I hate the Atlanta Braves to death and I loved to call them chokers every chance I get, but like it or not, I have to hold back because they won the World Series (1995). They got the job done. The Mariners were good, but not good enough.
For me, the peak of the Mariner franchise was the instant right before David Justice hit the home run in Game 6 of the 2000 ALCS. I know Jeremy ranked Game 4 of the 2001 Yankee series as his worst moment as a Seattle sports fan, but 2000 ALCS Game 6 Rhodes/Justice is right up there at or near the top for me with Dikembe Mutumbo cradling the ball on the floor of the Coliseum in glee as my worst Seattle sports moment(s).
Still though...can we really call this team "elite"? We're getting into some of the type of talk they have in Vancouver about the Canucks, except even that team just won the division.
Talk amongst yourselves...
Dan Patrick: Is the Seattle Mariners' run as an elite team over?
Jeff Brantley: Yes.
There's two ways to attack this...
-- Argue whether the run is over or not, and back up your point, or...
-- Argue whether or not the Mariners were truly elite.
Don't get me wrong, the Mariners since 2000 have given us some good times (most notably 2000-01). But given the results (or lack thereof), can we really call this team an elite team over this time span?
I know I've said this a couple times on the site, but I'm going to say it again. If you would have come up to me after the Mariners were eliminated in the 2000 ALCS and told me that the Yankees wouldn't win the World Series in 2001, 2002, or 2003, you damn well better believe I would have thought the Mariners would have at least gone to one of those World Series. That's the confidence I had in these guys BEFORE the 116-win season. I knew there was a chance Alex would go (and he did), but I figured they'd have enough pitching to get them by. Of course, 2001 came and many things came along that we'd never expected. I expected good pitching, sure, but did I expect Paul Abbott to go 17-4? Heck no. Then the hitting...no one knew Bret Boone would do that. No one could solve Ichiro, which provided some consolation at the time for not having the power of Alex (as did the crazy numbers of Boone). Who can forget the play of Stan Javier, light years away from the bench of today, and miles away from the benches of 2002 and 2003.
Then came the realization in 2002 that there wasn't a power bat to replace Alex. Then the league started to catch up to Ichiro. Then the brass decided to let Aaron Sele go (smart) and sign James Baldwin in his place (not smart...two words: Jason Schmidt), not far departed from shoulder surgery. Then came the realization that no, you can't blow a fastball past Major League hitters when it tops out at 89. Then came the realization that this team was almost dead without Edgar, but could stay afloat for half a season with a stopgap Ruben Sierra. Lou Piniella realized he was playing with a 24-man roster because of Pat Gillick's perpetual love affair with Rule V prospects (Luis Ugueto, Baseball Prospectus' Running Joke), not good when you realize Ugueto and Charles Gipson were the same guy -- late-inning defensive replacement. Who can forget Dave Myers throwing up the stop sign about three seconds too late in Anaheim and tearing Chris Snelling's ACL, something that has set Snelling back at least two years and should be considered grounds for firing (they canned Johnny Moses instead)? There went a big piece in any midseason trade possibility. If I remember right, that was the year where all of a sudden everyone wanted position players instead of minor league arms. Or maybe that was last year. It's all a blur now.
So we don't just have Pat Gillick to blame for deadline inactivity in 2002, we have Dave Myers too. But remember, there's always the waiver wire!! You had to love those late-season acquisitions of Jose Offerman, Doug Creek, and Ismael Valdes (the most solid of the group). I forgot exactly why Offerman was brought on, but I'm guessing they sold some line of veteran experience off the bench with a little skill with the bat. Valdes apparently plugged the hole left because Baldwin blew. Creek apparently was to fill the role of second lefty in the bullpen, but apparently no one in the Mariner front office could find the answer to "why wasn't this guy good enough for Tampa Bay, and why would that make him good enough for a team contending for the playoffs?"
Okay, enough spiel from me. I need a nap.
I think the Mariners from 2000-2003 were a pretty good team with a nominal run. I hate the Atlanta Braves to death and I loved to call them chokers every chance I get, but like it or not, I have to hold back because they won the World Series (1995). They got the job done. The Mariners were good, but not good enough.
For me, the peak of the Mariner franchise was the instant right before David Justice hit the home run in Game 6 of the 2000 ALCS. I know Jeremy ranked Game 4 of the 2001 Yankee series as his worst moment as a Seattle sports fan, but 2000 ALCS Game 6 Rhodes/Justice is right up there at or near the top for me with Dikembe Mutumbo cradling the ball on the floor of the Coliseum in glee as my worst Seattle sports moment(s).
Still though...can we really call this team "elite"? We're getting into some of the type of talk they have in Vancouver about the Canucks, except even that team just won the division.
Talk amongst yourselves...
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